Just a short question for everyone- With respect to the "ground zero mosque" (which it is neither), I have yet to hear ANY Muslim complaining about the YMCA in any town. Have you?
Well, ya know, most people don't complain about the several thousand mosques spread over our great nation either....but this one is symbolic of something else. And the people who are funding it aren't being honest about where the money is coming from. Not a great way to "bring people together" IMO.
However....if we tried to build a YMCA in Amadinijad's backyard....I would guess you would get some resistance.
This one IS symbolic; the opposition to it symbolizes just how much bin Laden has succeeded in his goal of changing who we are as a nation and the extent to which we are willing to abandon our freedoms and take away the rights of others because of ignorance and prejudice. It is symbolic of how much we have become like those who hate us, those we purport to be "better" than.
As far as what anyone else would do, this isn't about who they are; it's about who we are. And apparently, we are increasingly a nation of people who argue that we should emulate Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.
I am for standing for freedom of religion and NOT behaving like the people we consider the worst examples around. Unlike Ahmadinejad, let's not carry on about a community center. Unlike bin Laden, let's not overgeneralize and see innocent people as our enemies. Let's stand true to the best in our country, including respect for the freedoms and religions of others--not because that will frustrate the hell out of bin Laden, which it will, but because that's who we choose to be: Better than our worst impulses. Stronger than our fears. Fierce in the defense of those with whom we may disagree, because we understand that we have freedom for everyone or no freedom at all. Smarter than our adversaries and our own prejudices. Clearer-headed than our anger and pain and suspicion. More committed to the rights of others than to our own comforts.
And may we also be informed enough not to carry on about the funding of the "mosque" "at" Ground Zero without realizing that one of the big contributors is a biggest non-Murdoch shareholder in the company that owns Fox News. Or to talk about duplicity in discussing the funding without knowing that Fox News aired a story that cast suspicion on the funding and on that very contributor without mentioning that he is part owner of--yes, Fox News.
Or have we actually reached the stage of not only arguing that we should do as Ahmadinejad does but actually holding our own media to lower standards of transparency and full disclosure than a private religious group whose funding for a project to be built on private property is none of anyone's damn business in the first place?
No I haven't . At the same time I support these guys rights to build it I also wonder why it has to be right there in that area . But at the end of the day they bought the building that obviously wasn't a shrine when they put the money down it's a little late to say it's holy or an important site now . As far as I care the actual ground zero could be made into another symbol of capitalist greed a McDonalds and I wouldn't care . The lives lost were and are lost . No reason to build anything special there .
I wasn't at all impressed by Paula's link. The sort of view expressed only incites Americans who are already ignorant, & full of hatred toward Muslims.
Charles, there's already a strip joint there, & this is NOT 'hallowed' ground anyway.
Karen, your post is one of the most intelligent, informed & humane that I've seen for a long time. It's so encouraging to know that there are people like you.
Dr. F; In Green Bay- on a road less traveled, they wish to build a simple mosque- People here are all up in arms about that too. I am thinking it has less to do with geology- the proximity to WTC, than it has to do with 'fear', and ignorance. Not to mention open cruelty toward others. It seems to be 'open season' on anyone who does not share our own point of view; and there is something inherently wrong with that.
Nothing we can do, or say, or enact, will bring any of those lost lives back. And I doubt that, even after what they now know, that ANY of them would be part and parcel of what our America has become- supposedly "in their honor". As you noted, "the lives lost were, and are, lost .
If one reads even a few of the comments, the article seems to be very much of intolerance- There is never enough acceptance for all. And yes, that same acceptance 'should' leave out ANY of the radicals or extremists, or supremacists.
The building in question is in a damaged area (from the attack) and has sat empty since 9/11. They bought it at a discounted rate because no one else wanted it. It's to be a 13 story community center, not a mosque. It will house a cooking school and will have basketball courts. Only the top 2 floors will be used for prayer. It is also not visible from ground zero.
Fear and hatred are 2 traits I choose to steer clear of. Spreading these things is an abomination. You may think you have good intentions, but we all know where the path paved with those leads. Can we think rationally for a minute? You don't need to cut your hands off to keep them clean.
"American Muslims need to accept and spread the meme that it is time to get shariah (Islamic law) out of government and bring the ideas of modernity and Enlightenment to the Islamic faith we love." (From the article)
This is a typical double-standard; one which Fundies and other rightists have used for some time now. Muslims hold a festival in Dearborn? Sharia is taking over America! There's a middle-eastern community in your town? Sharia applies there! They don't even use American law!
No one ever says a word about the infestation of Fundies in the American military; the attempts by the followers of R.J. Rushdoony to implement a Christian theocracy in America - and when the Texas school board turns their textbooks into a Fundie travesty of education, criticizing them becomes 'anti-Christian' and 'persecution'.
Sorry. I stayed awake in class. The bullshit in this article doesn't wash. Neither do the comments, which are mainly hatespeech.
__________________________
The 'mosque'? It's really a community center. But, don't tell that to the semiliterate morons with their signs and their Jersey Shore 'attitudes'. As to New York in general - it's probably the worst example we could find of 'understanding'. Building anything in that town is going to be hard - the population is a hard-bitten lot with the propensity to break faces and otherwise solve things with more than a bit of violence.
As to your question, directly? We have a thriving Muslim population here. We had a couple of incidents of spray-painting mosques right after 9/11, but nothing since. We tend to be a pretty tolerant lot here in Portland, Oregon.
The Muslim population pretty much lives typical 'American' lives - they go to work; own businesses; run some world-class restaurants locally, and have a general appreciation for what they have here.
The last demonstration they held was against Israel's 'Operation Cast Lead' (where they killed over 3,000 Palestinians about two years ago and bombed the place flat, using white-phosphorus against civilian centers and committed other atrocities.)
I joined the demonstration.
They've never demonstrated against a YMCA, or any other building. Not here, anyway.
I do not care either way.All the BS pro and con was media driven and has nothing to do with anything. two city blocks is not at ground zero, The orthodox church that WAS damaged 9/11 has not been able to get building permits to repair, this in not media driven.
There is already a mosque much closer to "ground zero" than this community center...Masjid Manhattan....where's the "outrage" over it. It opened a few months before the WTC. Are the "conspiracy theorists" gonna claim it was planned from back in the 70s??
I am mistrusting of many who choose to backstab and lie in the name of their God. And believe me, I felt that way long before 9-11, about several groups of individuals right here in the Good ole U.S. of A who are not even from the middle east. Not all Muslims are bad people, the same as not all so-called Christians are good people. And yet, its the few bad ones that tend to "lump" them all together. Too bad we can't sort them out better. :(
I think lunarechoes writes wonderfully, and I agree with her 100%. We have been taught to immediately dis-like and dis-trust the Moslims as a whole. It is very sad and disturbing. I can understand why they would want a Mosque at that location, it says we are not all of the same thought and action...it does not dis-respect those who died there, course, this is only my opinion.
Well, ya know, most people don't complain about the several thousand mosques spread over our great nation either....but this one is symbolic of something else. And the people who are funding it aren't being honest about where the money is coming from. Not a great way to "bring people together" IMO.
ReplyDeleteHowever....if we tried to build a YMCA in Amadinijad's backyard....I would guess you would get some resistance.
http://frontpagemag.com/2010/10/11/what-the-muslims-in-america-can-do/
ReplyDeleteThis one IS symbolic; the opposition to it symbolizes just how much bin Laden has succeeded in his goal of changing who we are as a nation and the extent to which we are willing to abandon our freedoms and take away the rights of others because of ignorance and prejudice. It is symbolic of how much we have become like those who hate us, those we purport to be "better" than.
ReplyDeleteAs far as what anyone else would do, this isn't about who they are; it's about who we are. And apparently, we are increasingly a nation of people who argue that we should emulate Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.
I am for standing for freedom of religion and NOT behaving like the people we consider the worst examples around. Unlike Ahmadinejad, let's not carry on about a community center. Unlike bin Laden, let's not overgeneralize and see innocent people as our enemies. Let's stand true to the best in our country, including respect for the freedoms and religions of others--not because that will frustrate the hell out of bin Laden, which it will, but because that's who we choose to be: Better than our worst impulses. Stronger than our fears. Fierce in the defense of those with whom we may disagree, because we understand that we have freedom for everyone or no freedom at all. Smarter than our adversaries and our own prejudices. Clearer-headed than our anger and pain and suspicion. More committed to the rights of others than to our own comforts.
And may we also be informed enough not to carry on about the funding of the "mosque" "at" Ground Zero without realizing that one of the big contributors is a biggest non-Murdoch shareholder in the company that owns Fox News. Or to talk about duplicity in discussing the funding without knowing that Fox News aired a story that cast suspicion on the funding and on that very contributor without mentioning that he is part owner of--yes, Fox News.
Or have we actually reached the stage of not only arguing that we should do as Ahmadinejad does but actually holding our own media to lower standards of transparency and full disclosure than a private religious group whose funding for a project to be built on private property is none of anyone's damn business in the first place?
Sorry, I meant comfort, as in level of emotional comfort, not comforts.
ReplyDeleteNo I haven't . At the same time I support these guys rights to build it I also wonder why it has to be right there in that area . But at the end of the day they bought the building that obviously wasn't a shrine when they put the money down it's a little late to say it's holy or an important site now . As far as I care the actual ground zero could be made into another symbol of capitalist greed a McDonalds and I wouldn't care . The lives lost were and are lost . No reason to build anything special there .
ReplyDeleteI wasn't at all impressed by Paula's link. The sort of view expressed only incites Americans who are already ignorant, & full of hatred toward Muslims.
ReplyDeleteCharles, there's already a strip joint there, & this is NOT 'hallowed' ground anyway.
Karen, your post is one of the most intelligent, informed & humane that I've seen for a long time.
It's so encouraging to know that there are people like you.
This is America Sweets-
ReplyDeleteThat said, it is their 'backyard' also.
Does it really have to do with money? The Donald would have you think so...
Bu it doesn't.
It only has to do with fear of others.
XOXO
Me
ReplyDeleteWill go there soon.
And thank you much for stopping in!
XOXO
Me
You are both brilliant and eloquent- What a lovely combination!
ReplyDeleteAnd since I can add nothing but stars, I will leave it at that-
Those stars, and a big "Thank You" for bringing such a decent perspective to my question.
Your point of view is compassionate, real, and right.
XOXO
Me
Dr. F;
ReplyDeleteIn Green Bay- on a road less traveled, they wish to build a simple mosque- People here are all up in arms about that too.
I am thinking it has less to do with geology- the proximity to WTC, than it has to do with 'fear', and ignorance. Not to mention open cruelty toward others. It seems to be 'open season' on anyone who does not share our own point of view; and there is something inherently wrong with that.
Nothing we can do, or say, or enact, will bring any of those lost lives back. And I doubt that, even after what they now know, that ANY of them would be part and parcel of what our America has become- supposedly "in their honor".
As you noted, "the lives lost were, and are, lost .
XOXO
me
If one reads even a few of the comments, the article seems to be very much of intolerance-
ReplyDeleteThere is never enough acceptance for all.
And yes, that same acceptance 'should' leave out ANY of the radicals or extremists, or supremacists.
XOXO
Me
The building in question is in a damaged area (from the attack) and has sat empty since 9/11. They bought it at a discounted rate because no one else wanted it. It's to be a 13 story community center, not a mosque. It will house a cooking school and will have basketball courts. Only the top 2 floors will be used for prayer. It is also not visible from ground zero.
ReplyDeleteFear and hatred are 2 traits I choose to steer clear of. Spreading these things is an abomination. You may think you have good intentions, but we all know where the path paved with those leads. Can we think rationally for a minute? You don't need to cut your hands off to keep them clean.
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteAll of my comments have disappeared, and I am sick about that.
My apologies as I am pressed for time today and cannot redo at this point.
Love to all
XOXO
me
ReplyDeleteI am not clicking n the stars either- they are all reading 5-
luna said it all :)
ReplyDelete"American Muslims need to accept and spread the meme that it is time to get shariah (Islamic law) out of government and bring the ideas of modernity and Enlightenment to the Islamic faith we love." (From the article)
ReplyDeleteThis is a typical double-standard; one which Fundies and other rightists have used for some time now. Muslims hold a festival in Dearborn? Sharia is taking over America! There's a middle-eastern community in your town? Sharia applies there! They don't even use American law!
No one ever says a word about the infestation of Fundies in the American military; the attempts by the followers of R.J. Rushdoony to implement a Christian theocracy in America - and when the Texas school board turns their textbooks into a Fundie travesty of education, criticizing them becomes 'anti-Christian' and 'persecution'.
Sorry. I stayed awake in class. The bullshit in this article doesn't wash. Neither do the comments, which are mainly hatespeech.
__________________________
The 'mosque'? It's really a community center. But, don't tell that to the semiliterate morons with their signs and their Jersey Shore 'attitudes'. As to New York in general - it's probably the worst example we could find of 'understanding'. Building anything in that town is going to be hard - the population is a hard-bitten lot with the propensity to break faces and otherwise solve things with more than a bit of violence.
It's in their culture.
As to your question, directly? We have a thriving Muslim population here. We had a couple of incidents of spray-painting mosques right after 9/11, but nothing since. We tend to be a pretty tolerant lot here in Portland, Oregon.
ReplyDeleteThe Muslim population pretty much lives typical 'American' lives - they go to work; own businesses; run some world-class restaurants locally, and have a general appreciation for what they have here.
The last demonstration they held was against Israel's 'Operation Cast Lead' (where they killed over 3,000 Palestinians about two years ago and bombed the place flat, using white-phosphorus against civilian centers and committed other atrocities.)
I joined the demonstration.
They've never demonstrated against a YMCA, or any other building. Not here, anyway.
I do not care either way.All the BS pro and con was media driven and has nothing to do with anything. two city blocks is not at ground zero, The orthodox church that WAS damaged 9/11 has not been able to get building permits to repair, this in not media driven.
ReplyDeleteThere is already a mosque much closer to "ground zero" than this community center...Masjid Manhattan....where's the "outrage" over it. It opened a few months before the WTC. Are the "conspiracy theorists" gonna claim it was planned from back in the 70s??
ReplyDeleteYou make me blush. But seriously, all I did was point out the basic truth: How we behave is about who we are, not about who someone else is.
ReplyDeleteI think they're still there--and heavily be-starred. ;-)
ReplyDeleteSad thing... the area now called "Ground Zero" was once a thriving Muslim community... yet
ReplyDeleteYeah, the New York Syrian community.
ReplyDeleteNo I have not Anna yet they are run by their own countrymen in the Middle Eastern countries
ReplyDeleteI am mistrusting of many who choose to backstab and lie in the name of their God. And believe me, I felt that way long before 9-11, about several groups of individuals right here in the Good ole U.S. of A who are not even from the middle east.
ReplyDeleteNot all Muslims are bad people, the same as not all so-called Christians are good people. And yet, its the few bad ones that tend to "lump" them all together. Too bad we can't sort them out better. :(
I think lunarechoes writes wonderfully, and I agree with her 100%.
ReplyDeleteWe have been taught to immediately dis-like and dis-trust the Moslims as a whole. It is very sad and disturbing.
I can understand why they would want a Mosque at that location, it says we are not all of the same thought and action...it does not dis-respect those who died there, course, this is only my opinion.